David Gerber

Jennifer Bruno

Welcome to Hedge Interview. This episode is part of the Service Provider Spotlight, which features insights from important service providers that support fund managers. My guest today is David Gerber. He is the founder and CEO of Wolfgang Capital, which provides outsourced CFO functions, including consulting and advisory services for investment managers. David has over 30 years of accounting and finance experience, including more than 25 years working with hedge funds, private equity, and traditional asset managers. Before founding Wolfgang Capital, David served as president, CFO, and partner at several successful industry-leading firms, including SAC Capital Advisors, Greatpoint Partners, and Daruma Asset Management. He has also co-founded and built startup investment firms from 10 million to 3 billion in AUM. David has a deep understanding of business building, strategy, capital markets, execution, taxation, and a wide range of investor requirements, all of which are essential for operating a successful fund business. Welcome, David.

David Gerber

Thank you, Jennifer. It's great to be here today.

Jennifer Bruno

First, tell me about your inspiration for founding Wolfgang Capital.

David Gerber

Sure. So it really dates back to my experience going back to SAC and prior. I started out in public accounting, in which is a service organization serving various clients. When I transitioned to private industry at SAC, I realized that I now had one client, one client being the trading desk and our investors. So, and start after spending my career, as you mentioned, almost 30 years as an operator. I founded Wolfgang to service new investment managers who are looking for a head start to get their funds started and to run at an operating efficiency that's consistent with the investment program.

Jennifer Bruno

And did you find that there was an unmet need in the marketplace for you know this type of service?

David Gerber

Absolutely, I always have. You know, many CFOs of investment firms are really controllers. They provide, and this has evolved over the years. You know, it's really a controller function: books and records, NAV, taxation, and compliance. And what I've always modeled my career on as being business value add, and I felt that that was missing in our industry, even with the outsourced CFO firms that are out there, who are very good, but they focus more on the blocking and tackling rather than the strategic and advisory relationship that Wolfgang has with its clients.

Jennifer Bruno

I sometimes find that emerging managers will say to me, or you know, new investment managers will say, "I have a fund administrator. Why do I need a CFO? Like, what? Why? Why do I? They don't even necessarily understand how critical this these services are to their business. So, how would you define the difference between? These are questions I get. So, it's it's helpful to clarify. Why do I? Why don't I just needed. Why can't a fund administrator do it?

David Gerber

Sure, that that's something that certainly evolved over the years. But you know, they they really are two different functions. I think the fund administrator is the official books and records of the fund. It's an independent function that's provided with you know candidly, it's it's best practices and industry norm to have a fund administrator, and and more importantly, an independent fund administrator. You know, from a CFO's perspective, it's really an oversight function because somebody has to oversee the books and records and the calculation of all the NAVs and numbers that are going out to investors. Basically, you want to ensure you know accuracy and integrity of the numbers, and that's just one function of the CFO, but it is an important one.

Jennifer Bruno

Isn't it also true that a fund administrator really oversees the you know client statements and the the fund aspect, but not necessarily your business? So the CFO oversees everything, right, for the health of the overall business, right? You're

David Gerber

absolutely right, and you know there's two sides to the investment management firms. There's the fund side, and there's the business side, or the management company, as it's generally known. The fund administrator oversees all the fund interactions, investor interactions, as you mentioned, statements and NAV generation. From a CFO's perspective, the CFO takes it from there and oversees the entire organization, and it's really to allow the portfolio manager and the investment professionals to focus on investing, because the biggest driver of these firms, whether it be growth and ultimately success, is going to be performance. If the portfolio manager is distracted with its business. Then it, you know, while I can't quantify it, it's really going to take away from performance in some in some way. So we try to take it from as a CFO, which is one thing I always did as an operator, and now what we provide here at Wolfgang is we take a holistic view of the business and we look at it as a standalone business. The business just happens to be investment management, and that's the way we approach every engagement.

Jennifer Bruno

And so, what are some common misconceptions that fund managers have when they engage with you?

David Gerber

Yeah, we we get that a lot, and and I think one of the things is, you know, the transition from in our business, and in any new investment management firm, it's usually the person is a number two or a number three as an analyst, serving a particular role, generally limited to the investment side. When they found their own firm, they're now they're now an analyst, a portfolio manager, a risk manager, and a business owner and entrepreneur who's responsible for staff, and that could be a huge undertaking. You know, one of the things that we look at in the success for new managers is to have as little change as possible from their prior experience into this new experience of being a business owner. So, you know, I I think a lot of new managers they're driven. They really want to do things themselves, and they may not have the experience to do it. So I think the misconception is, I may not need this. My business is really simple, and you know that may have been true. You know, I'm dating myself here. You know, decades ago, but you know today there really needs to be an independent function between the business leadership and business running, and the portfolio management, including risk. So, so I think that's the biggest misconception: is hey, what do I need this for? I can just do it myself. It's so simple, and as we learned with many of our engagements, where the business starts is not usually where the business ends, and it's it really evolves because each each fund is very unique, each firm is very unique, which require an individual skill set.

Jennifer Bruno

Right, right. I mean, every new investment manager is really like a startup, and there's a lot of moving parts where when somebody comes off of out of another fund or a you know investment bank or whatever they they springboarded off of to do their own business they're they're usually fairly unaware of all of those business aspects which are really critical and the costs as well so that's my next question. What are the typical costs of a fund management business that that managers may or may not be aware of, like the you know the all of the things that you would be helping them oversee as part of their business?

David Gerber

Sure. So we we like to break down the business into really who's paying for these expenses, who's paying for this business, and that's generally broken down in what's known as fund expenses, which are generally borne by the investors, and then management company expenses, which are an operating cost in the normal course of business. So, as an example, there are fairly standard costs that get passed on as as a fund to the investors, which is the startup cost, which I think that's one of the things you're referring to is one of the largest costs of starting a firm, and that generally involves legal and accounting consultative approach to do the fund documents, the fund structure, the fund formation, and that generally could run several $100,000, you know, depending on the complexity of the strategy, whether it's a domestic or an offshore, otherwise known as a master feeder structure or a mini master structure. So it really depends, but generally those expenses are borne by the investors, and to sum that up, the expenses that are borne by the investors are typically the startup costs, including the legal and accounting that I had mentioned, the ongoing fund administration costs to do the monthly NAVs, and the the annual audit and tax preparation for the underlying fund that includes K ones and delivery, so those are generally broken down as fund expenses. From a fund perspective, we like to keep fund expenses below 50 basis points. I think that's sort of the pain point for investors. Whereas, you know, they say, "Look, we're paying a management fee, but now we're paying all these other expenses. What I've mentioned earlier is really standard, and what what is passed on to the investors. There can be some element of research and even accounting and and some other costs, but generally we tend to limit it at 50 basis points. On the other side is the business of the business, and that's. All of the normal operating costs of the business, which is things like payroll and rent and research and professional fees and insurance and office expenses and things like that, those are what are offset against the management fees that are charged to the fund. Typically, in an early fund, you know, we if they're not cash flow break even, you know, if you think about a standard two and 20 fund, which is a little dated, but for for simplicity, we'll we'll keep it at that. So $100 million fund would have $2 million in revenue. That is more than sufficient to run the business, including staffing. You know, our experience has been of all the costs that are involved in the management company, roughly two thirds are personnel related. So that includes analysts and staff for, and including us as CFO. The other costs are really incidental, and the beauty of our business is the financial scalability; those costs don't necessarily exponentially increase with your assets under management. When we look at a startup firm, which is usually you know 234, people, we estimate costs between one and 1.5 million.

Jennifer Bruno

Since you mentioned the two and 20, I know you know you and I have we know each other. I've worked with you, and I I've learned from you that today, in order for a fund business to kind of get off the ground, you've been really helpful with new investment managers that need to kind of learn what's expected as a new fund manager in terms of fee structure, so to get AUM to build AUM initially, they need to be more flexible on fees. So, and I I end up passing that on to managers because they just expect that right out of the gate, as a brand new manager, that they can command two and 20, which today doesn't go over as well. So, what do you advise to new investment managers about that fee structure, and what what should they keep in mind as they're going to launch a fund about fees? Sure.

David Gerber

So, so I think Jennifer, I think you and I can agree. The two and 20 model is very dated, which I guess just shows my years of experience. So a typical fund would charge one and 1.5, but I think it's really more important to look at it conceptually from the investor's perspective. Is the investors want to know that the managers are generating alpha and generating performance, and they're entitled to get paid from that. What they don't want to do is have this massive profit center where the manager can just sit back and convert from a performance machine to an asset gathering machine, and that really can become very dangerous. You know, as funds grow, that they're really focused on preservation of assets rather than performance, so it's. I think it's really important to be flexible. Again, I think the market is one to 1.5% There's usually some sort of founder share or anchor share class. You know, I think one of the things we've done really creatively is rather than an AUM focus, we focus on a working capital focus. You know, and as an example, you know what's really important is these businesses want to survive and then thrive. And one of the things we've done with one of our clients, which was incredibly creative, but it really came from the managers. They solved the working capital issue first by raising pre AUM working capital, and they sold an interest in their firm to entitle them to five years of working capital, and that enabled them. It was really creative on their part, and we learned a lot from it. But what what enabled them to do was to have a five year runway to build out their firm, improve their investment program, and they've been quite successful.

Jennifer Bruno

Wow, that's great! And it's those types of arrangements in the beginning that can really make a difference in how for a fund manager to kind of get critical liftoff and become successful. Because it's it's a hard start in the beginning, and a lot of those, the costs of running a business can can really hamper a fund's success. So, do you ever do they get creative on the other end of on the performance side?

David Gerber

Yeah, I think the key word here is flexibility and creativity. So, while 20% is certainly accepted, there's so many different ways to calculate a performance fee. Investors generally want to pay for it on alpha generation. So there could be something as simple as a 20% which is really more of an established manager concept. But there could be introduce things like hurdle rates. You know, deferred compensation in terms of getting paid over a two or three year period. So it really depends. It also depends on the strategy. You know, if there's the supply demand in the strategy, if it's a very generic strategy, it's going to be very difficult to stand out from your peers. So you know, what we've seen is everything from a you know something we saw in one of our clients. We did an anchor share class, which was for day one investors with a longer lockup. So there's in addition to performance fee, managers get paid in a bunch of different ways. You know, in the different terms of the offering. You know, another one is the lockup, as I mentioned. So typically, investors, if it's a less liquid strategy, or if they're willing to commit capital for a longer period of time, there's usually some concession on economics, generally in the management fee and the performance fee. In this case, the performance fee.

Jennifer Bruno

Okay, and what are some common mistakes that managers make?

David Gerber

Yeah, so we we see it all the time, and you know one of the good things is with our experience, the managers are able to take advantage of that by avoiding those mistakes. I think the first thing I would say is you know understanding that it's important to bring in align the business objectives with the performance objectives and to start early in the business. You know, a lot of fund managers say, "Oh, I want to raise raise assets first. Maybe when I raise 50 or 100 million, then I'll think about a fund administrator or a CFO or an Accountant, you know that's and we found that's not the case, but we we see it over and over again. Another thing that we see is underestimating the cost of running this business. Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, this is a business, and using a small cap manager as an example, you know we at the end of every interview with a new manager, we like to focus on their story. Everyone has a story. Tell us yours, and that's one of the things what makes the manager come alive. So, so the thing there is, they underestimate the costs. One of the common mistakes is the lack of willing lack of willingness or the ability to invest in the business. So again, like I mentioned earlier, these are businesses, and we say to every manager at the end of every interview, "Would you invest in this business? Because they're in the and they're in the business of evaluating businesses every day as part of their job, so I think the first thing is the lack of or the willingness or the ability to invest in the business. I think the second thing is that they can just do it themselves, and as I talked about earlier, that's just a big distraction for the manager, which can which can hurt performance. You know, ultimately, what happens there is the manager gets distracted with business issues, staffing issues, working capital. So we really want the manager, as everyone does, to maximize the chance of success. To focus on the performance in the portfolio and his or her staff. So those are some of the common errors that we've seen that we tend to avoid. One of the examples that one of our advisors and our advisory board has said to me is one of the good things about Wolfgang is when he explains it to Magis and what we do is there's a you know think about we're the captain of the ship and you know the portfolio manager is the owner of the ship but we're the captain of the ship and we're steering, and we're avoiding all the different rocks that are at the bottom of the ocean. We we we don't want that manager to hit those rocks. We'd rather have them avoid those rocks to maximize success, and that that again, so that they could focus on performance. So, I think that's one of the one of the things that we do.

Jennifer Bruno

I also know that you have helped new managers sort of build out their team, and from my perspective, having talked to, I do interview family offices in the Investor Views series, and I know from my own past expertise and as being a marketing person in the field and just interviewing family offices as well in hedge interview, that one of one thing that's really important is the management team and building out your because they're buying into not just the strategy but obviously the people and the manager as well as his team. So I've heard that a red flag for investors is when there's a lot of turnover. You know, that's that's kind of the management team itself is is a really important thing for investors. So, how have you helped investment managers build? I know that's something that you cover as well, is helping them understand the team aspect and building out their team. You've taken. Single, you know, an individual who has, who wants to launch a fund, and you've-I've seen you help build out teams. And how do you go about that, knowing that that's important to investors as well?

David Gerber

Sure. So I think it starts with the manager manager themselves. This is their firm, and one of the great things about doing startups, which is something I've enjoyed most of my career, is you have a blank sheet of paper to design a business in the way you think it should be run, and that includes staffing. So we we tend to look at a two to three year view of the business because what a business looks like day one is generally going to be very different than what it is two to three years from now, and as much as everyone says, "Oh no, it's very simple. I'm going to have two analysts, and and I'm going to have an office manager and a CFO, and I'm going to manage a billion dollars. It's different, and it evolves with the manager's needs because of that transition from being an analyst and now a portfolio manager and a business owner, so I think that's really important. And what we do, as I mentioned, we take a three-year outlook and we see that we're taking this serious as a business. How is it going to be supported at different AUM levels? What if we introduce a new strategy to the portfolio and to the firm. I'm sorry. So we tend to look several years out, and we try to extract that information from the manager to allow them to think not just about today, but about down the road how their business will look.

Jennifer Bruno

Right. And do you find that? So this is a sort of a two-part question. Do you work with? Is there a typical fit for Wolfgang Capital? Like, do you work with? Are there? Is there? What would you con? Who would qualify as a great fit for Wolfgang? And then the other part of that that I was sort of thinking is like, I bet that there are different operate. Some operations are maybe more expensive than others in terms of the fund business. Like I, off the top of my head, I know that like you know the break even for a private equity firm is going to be way higher than a single you know a different approach, a different type of strategy. Like that's one of the higher higher end. So who do you typically work with?

David Gerber

Yeah, great question. You know, and I think it's based on our experience as operators of these firms. We tend to focus on equity-based managers, and we find those are the most simple in terms of the operational support, so that we can really focus on the strategy, vision, and execution of the business, and that includes growth. So we we tend to focus on equity and equity long short, and we also focus on managers who are newer in their life cycle. So we'll call them startup managers. While we do do conversions, and we have taken clients from other operators in our space, we like to do things right the first time, so we would prefer a new manager in the equity long short space, and there's plenty of opportunity there.

Jennifer Bruno

And how would you say your type of business differed? How how does Wolfgang differ from your peers in this particular space?

David Gerber

Sure, another great question, and I love speaking about this. It really goes back to my career. You know, many CFOs of funds are incredibly competent. They come out of public accounting, much like myself, and they're really controllers in CFOs' clothing. I think the amount of CFO work relative to controller work is probably about a 2080, you know 20% CFO work, 80% controller work, which lends itself well to the outsourced model. But you know, I think one of the things that differentiates our service is a couple things. We do the basic blocking and tackling. We, as you mentioned earlier, we oversee the fund administrator. We oversee the audit. We oversee the tax, but the things that we do really goes to our careers and our experience. We have an IR function where we help manage the capital capital introduction through the investment banks, and and it's a very heavy lift. So instead of hiring a full time person as a junior IR person, we have the experience of having raised billions of dollars over the course of our careers. Now, I want to be clear: we're not fundraisers, but we know how to manage the process, and that dovetails nicely into the second thing that we do. That's very different: is we represent all managers in the due diligence process, the operational due diligence. So, not only will we prepare the due diligence questionnaire, which is fairly standard based upon spending time with the manager, we also do a visual operational due diligence presentation, much like an investor presentation in an investor deck. We found that to be very useful in presentation. To consultants and firms like Alborn and Beaumont in the operational due diligence function to really help bring that capital across the finish line. So those are two things that we're focusing on the business, and you know we know that performance is the number one driver of long-term success, but the the firms need to be viable as businesses, so it tends to focus around the investors and the investor support. And I don't really know of any other firms who are doing that today.

Jennifer Bruno

I mean, honestly, knowing you and knowing how you have helped investment managers, I don't know how honestly that they-it's-it's like having a a coach, or you know, with all of the knowledge that your team brings to an investment manager and to help them grow their business. It's-it's like that-that having having that kind of guidance that your group provides is, um, it's-it's just so helpful for an investment manager who's usually unclear and unsure about all of these functions and how to navigate them. So it's it's just what you provide, what Wolfgang provides, is an amazing service. Thank you. And I think yeah, I mean I I've enjoyed knowing you guys over the years, and and watching the firms that you work with grow to become really successful. That's always an exciting thing. So why would you say that when when a manager chooses to work with you? Now I know you've just said you know how you're differentiated, but like what is the thing that usually clicks. That why do you think they choose you?

David Gerber

Sure, I think it's several things. One is our experience. We've sat in the seat that they've sat in. So as opposed to just spending time as a service provider, we've been general partners, we've been allocators, and we've been CFOs and COOs, so we have the experience to walk the walk and talk the talk, and that's been really valuable. The second thing is we take a very commercial approach to these firms. We focus less on the investment strategy, which it's important, but we focus more on the commercial approach to the business. Is this going to be a successful business over the long term, and that's been our approach. And I think that resonates well with managers because that's new territory for them. You know, they're really focused on investing most of their careers. This is a new business. They're they're now a business owner, and they want to know that they have somebody with the experience and the judgment to really help guide them as it is their firm, so I think that's really important. The other thing is we can work with managers at any stage in their life cycle. You know, we can do startups, we can do multi-billion-dollar firms. You know, which we tend to go into an advisory capacity, which is one of the beauties of the Wolfgang business model. You know, we want to grow with the manager, but ultimately they could need a full-time person in-house. We'll help interview, train, and hire that person to be a very smooth transition for the investors. And we consider that a success. And many times we'll go on the advisory board after that. But we think you know the success is we get a manager started for several years. They can build their business. They can focus on performance. They can focus on developing a track record, and then ultimately see, oh, we're three years in already. Let's take another fresh look at our business and see where we are for the next stage of growth.

Jennifer Bruno

Right now, I know that I know that there are managers that would like to work with you. That you're not able to work with everybody, or don't want to work with everybody because of them not being a good fit. What would be some things that are a no for you?

David Gerber

Sure. So that's one of the beauties of being a completely independent firm. You know, we have no outside ownership. We're completely independent, owned by the employees who work at Wolfgang. So, a couple non-starters. You know, we we define something as what we call the Wolfgang conditions for success, which is something that we've written based on experience over the years. And you know, I can give you a few examples. You know, the first is the level of commitment that the manager has to the business. There has to be some element of financial success to bring the manager up into this point. You know, it can't be. You know, I have no experience. I just want to run a hedge fund. You know, it doesn't work. It won't work. Investors will not subscribe to that. But so we want to show a track record of experience of various market cycles, so you know typically eight to 10 years of experience from the investment side. We want to know also that the business is well funded. You know we talked about working capital earlier. Let's we can help solve that problem and address it to make sure that. The financial runway is there for the manager to deploy his or her strategy. So I think that's really important, and it's really I think it goes back to the commitment of the manager of are they really serious about doing this? You know, what's their story? Do they have a clean record? Does it make sense? There's so many managers we have the experience of speaking with is, you know, they've been managing a billion dollars for the last 10 years. They annualize 20% and they want to put a half a million dollars into the fund. Something doesn't make sense. So we we you know unfortunately in our or fortunately in our business we're we're judged by our record, and that's generally a financial record of performance and compensation. So that financial commitment from a manager is really important. If if that's not there, it'll probably be a non-starter for us. I think it also has to be. We have to know that we can add real value to the firm. So in a quantitative strategy, black box, you know, quant strategy. We're probably not going to be a lot of value. It's real model driven. A lot more interaction with the portfolio managers. It's which is why we focus on the equity side.

Jennifer Bruno

Right. Okay, that makes sense. And what are the costs? What what is the average cost of working with? What would it cost a manager to work with Wolfgang Capital.

David Gerber

Sure. So as I mentioned, no no engagement is the same. They're all unique, but we can certainly provide ranges. You know, we work with new managers, and costs and budget are really important. The first thing I would say is, I think when evaluating whether to insource or outsource, you know, we're a fraction of the cost of insourcing, which would be north of half a million dollars. You know, between all the benefits and costs and technology, you know, with Wolfgang, there's no hidden cost. We typically work on a fixed fee that starts. It starts about $12,500 per month, or $150,000 annual. And what that is, that gets you a whole team of people, and there's no hidden costs. Depending on the engagement and the complexity, it could be more. And depending on the level of service that you want, whether it be the IR function, the compliance function, you know, that's one thing I didn't mention. Is one of the great things about our offering, which we learned over the last couple years, which we've now incorporated, is we have we got a question. Hey, this sounds like a great offering. Do you do compliance? Well, we've partnered with a firm called Pillar Pillar Compliance, founded by David Lombardi, very experienced compliance professional, and that's also something we can offer to our clients. It is an additional cost, but you know we we like to do no surprises to managers. So, you know, I've learned over the course of my career being an operator, general partners and business owners do not want surprises, certainly in the expense side. So we tend to come in. You know, we're a fixed cost model, which is very different than our peers. You know, we don't get paid hourly; we get paid to get the job done. So it's really important when looking at other providers and Wolfgang to know what your total costs are going to be. You know, some firms advertise lower costs, but it's usually capped at a certain amount of hours per month. You know that's not the way we operate. Ours is typically a fixed cost, and and we're flexible. You know we've actually done some equity deals with managers if we thought there was real promise in the manager, but they were strapped on cash. We've done revenue share deals as well. So that's the other thing with Wolfgang is we can be incredibly flexible in our fee. You know the way we put our fees together. We want to work with managers over time, and that that relationship can evolve over time.

Jennifer Bruno

Right. And another, as you mentioned about the compliance function that you you can plug managers into. I remember that you have pretty much a full suite of other services according to what a manager might need. There's your service, but there's also you have such a great network. If an if an investment manager needs a particular service, you have at the ready a pretty strong network of other providers that you plug people into. So that's something that an investment manager would plug into by working with you. That those costs are separate, obviously, but that they you do have you know that you can help them get aligned for the services that they, the additional services that they need, that they sometimes are not aware of. So that's I would I would think another advantage of Wolfgang Capital.

David Gerber

Really proud of those relationships that we've developed and we continue to work with over time, but we know what success. Successful firms look like we know how they operate, and we've been fortunate enough to be a part of them. We've also been fortunate enough to be part of things that didn't work, so we avoid those types of mistakes. So that's been you know when you spend 30 years, whenever you say it, it makes me feel really old. But

Jennifer Bruno

I think

David Gerber

you know 30 years experience in this business. I think back to my days at SAC, which which I'm approaching my 30 year anniversary of of starting there, which was an incredible experience. But you know, we want to set managers up for success, and ultimately that is our goal, and that's how we judge ourselves if our managers are successful. Look, we could have. It's also important just to be reminded: performance is the big driver of success in these firms. It's really, really important. Undeniable. You could have the best business plan in the world. You could have the greatest service providers. You could have Wolfgang Capital, but without performance, it's going to fall flat. Yeah. Yeah. So we help support those managers, but again, we're freeing up their time to allow them to focus to hopefully generate good results and good performance over time.

Jennifer Bruno

Right. So you've just kind of more or less answered my last question, which what helps an asset manager become a success from your point of view, and I think that performance component is the bottom line, really, right?

David Gerber

Yeah, absolutely. I think the the really the most important thing is patience. When a manager starts, you know, how long is it going to take to raise capital? How many meetings do I have to take with an allocator? The answer is it depends. You know how unique is your strategy? What is your background? Do you have a track record that's portable? What is your commitment to the business? There's so many factors, but I think the biggest thing is patience, which is why we tend to have a two to three year working capital relationship with the firms, meaning they really need to have two to three years of working capital to deploy their strategy to have the financial runway to make it work. If they don't have that, it's going to be a real challenge because you know managers are human, believe it or not, and they're going to feel financial pressures and other things that are related and unrelated to their firm, so I think patience is the number one thing that we try to remind managers, and we try to set up a plan. We spend a lot of time with the managers, and we want to be their business partner and guide them through the success and the curves and the things that come up that are unexpected. But I think with our experience, we have that we have that covered that we can we can handle pretty much anything,

Jennifer Bruno

right? I mean, your the experience of you and your team and the things you've learned over the years is what's going to help them avoid pitfalls and those. That's why I brought up the you know those mistakes that managers who don't know and kind of run into without the guidance to say no. I don't. I don't think you should do that. Go this way instead, is a huge advantage of working with Wolfgang Capital. So thank you so much for being here today. Every all of the insights you provided are really helpful for new managers who are looking to get started in the space and to understand better, you know what what they need to know to be a success. So thank you so much for joining us today.

David Gerber

It was it's been my pleasure, and I hope your viewership really gets something out of it. And we encourage them to contact us, and and you know we want to hear your story.